Liz Plank - Award-winning journalist pens articles on disability equality, masculinuty, and inclusion

Author, award-winning journalist, executive producer, and CEO, Liz Plank talks about becoming a journalist and writer despite her ADHD diagnosis. Liz, began her career working in a community center for persons with disabilities and saw how they were mistreated at home. That’s when she decided to make a bigger impact and write about the social ills of society. In her recent book, For the Love of Men, Liz interviewed one interviewee, D’Arcee Charington who uses a wheelchair and expresses the challenges of his intersectionality and dating.  Liz does see positive change happening from political candidates addressing inclusion to the push for better employment hiring practices. Listen in to hear more!

To find out more about our guest, visit these links:
Website: http://www.elizabethplank.com/
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/feministabulous
Twitter:   https://twitter.com/feministabulous?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Instagram:    https://www.instagram.com/feministabulous/?hl=en
Tik Tok:   https://www.tiktok.com/@lizplank?lang=en
For the Love of Men Book: https://www.amazon.com/Liz-Plank/e/B07QLN8KMT%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
Vox Media podcast:  https://podcasts.voxmedia.com/host/liz-plank

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Transcript

Intro: 0:03

Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by Abilities in Motion. I'm your host, Shelly Houser. Join us for real conversations and no nonsense talk from everyday people with disabilities. Living their most independent everyday lives. Tune in for the latest news surrounding disability, accessibility and independence, where conversations aren't dissed and stories that need to be told aren't missed. So let's talk.

Shelly: 0:35

Welcome back listeners. This is Shelly Houser and I'm your host of DisAbility Talks. Today's guest is Canadian author, award-winning journalist, executive producer, and host of digital series, Vox media and NBC news, Liz Plank. She is currently the CEO of Liz plank productions and the columnist for MSNBC. Her creative and funny approach to journalism has landed her interviews on the today show the daily show, MSNBC CNN, ABC, BBC world, and more. Liz uses her platform to raise the voices of those who are often not heard in society. Good afternoon, Liz, how are you?

Liz: 1:12

Thank you. Good.

Shelly: 1:13

Thanks for joining us. This is a great pleasure to have you on the show. We have so much to talk about today. So why did you decide that you wanted to be a journalist you had posted recently that your own writing skills were not the greatest at a younger age?

Liz: 1:34

Uh, because, uh, yeah, undiagnosed ADHD furniture had something to do with that. I just, you know, what's funny is that the first book I actually read and enjoyed was when I was 11 years old and it was of the biography of Helen Keller, but yeah, I couldn't read a page without having to reread it. And so I was very distracted and it gave me it produced so much anxiety because I, I, you know, you have to read to be able to really get the skill to write. So I never, ever, ever had journalism on my dance card. So, communication didn't actually feel like something I was necessarily good at, but, um, I realized that it was, you know, media was just the best way to affect social change. Um, before I started writing and I moved to London, I actually was, uh, yeah, I worked at a community center for people with disabilities and I was actually just going to go into social work. And one of the things that just, I found so frustrating with my job is that I felt like I wasn't an acting change. You know, I would come into work every day and I would see, you know, the members of the community come in having been mistreated in their homes, not having access to jobs, being, living in poverty, right? Like being discriminated against all these social ills that, you know, the disability community has to deal with. And so that's where I, I decided to go into what I thought was going to be like policy or government work without really knowing what that meant probably. But that's when I ended up just starting to write. And that's how one of the first article, the first article I wrote ended up changing a rule for the 2012 Olympics where they were going to force female boxers to wear skirts. And so I remember just being like, oh, this is interesting. Cause I can write something here and change things, but I felt more satisfied by some of the impacts that I was seeing just that I could do through my writing. You know, they say the pen is mightier than the sword. And, and while social work is the grassroots of, of advocacy, you putting pen to paper and you might follow the goal would be, you know, one of the things that's so important is that we pay social workers, uh, livable wages that we, that we give them the support and the resources that they need so that their, their potential and their talent is not lost in a system that degrades or devalues them, you know, and that I think comes from misogyny and sexism, right. We devalue the things that women are traditionally good at. And we overvalue the things that we think men are supposed to be good at. And so it creates huge inequalities. And so, yeah, social work is the most important profession in the world. And social workers should have lives where not only they're compensated fairly and they have good working conditions, but they also are making the impact that they have the ability to make.

Shelly: 4:45

You posted recently about supporting disabled owned businesses. Why did you post that? Why is that so important for society?

Liz: 4:52

It's like, like I know, you know, it's just what hello! Like we talk about every other identity and, and, you know, female owned businesses and supporting black owned businesses and, uh, Asian owned businesses. But why is, you know, disabled owned businesses, not something that necessarily always comes to mind. Um, you know, the disabled community is struggling in, in, in ways that I think is so under appreciated and under reported. And so it would be legal for someone to pay someone 30 cents just because they have a disability. It is, it is 2021. And, uh, you know, 80% of people with disabilities are, don't have a job right now. And so that is just such a missed opportunity for us as a society to tap into the talent of people with disabilities. And, um, you know, we can talk about awareness all day is such a lost opportunity for our society. It is such a lost opportunity for corporate America. It is such a lost opportunity to not tap into the talent of people with that's a loss on our part when we leave out people and, uh, particularly with disability, we can talk about awareness all day long, but he cannot make justice is at the root of, of any movement. We can say that, but if they are forced to live without dignity and in poverty and don't have access to work, like work is basic, it should be, it's not a privilege, right? It should be something that everyone should have the ability to do, because that's how we live in the capitalistic society. Like in order to live, you have to work. And so to say, you can't do it, um, because of something you didn't choose is discrimination. And it is something that I think is, is extremely important.

Shelly: 6:48

I know students with disabilities often don't go to college or finish college, but that deficiency in pay at least in Pennsylvania, comes from a law from 1938. I don't know if that's across the nation, but that's pathetic that that they were valued and seen as, oh, it's going to take them longer to do these tasks.

Liz: 7:10

Right. We call it a training program writer like a specific name, but it's not, it's, it's again, they're doing work for you. It's so screwed up.

Shelly: 7:22

You know, you did a really great piece that I've always show the the video you did in 2016 of why people with disabilities have a problem loading and you were at a conference, do you remember that video? And then you did something else in 2017 with Adapt.

Liz: 7:40

Yeah, of course.

Shelly: 7:40

And so tell us about those pieces and did see any positive change come out of any of that?

Liz: 7:46

I mean, that's the thing, you know, y our q uestion, your question is so good because it's something I have to, I think a lot about. And I'm at the point where I feel really lucky that I've, that I got to cover, you know, disability conferences that I get to interview incredible people like K haled and Emily, E lla, J oe, and Melissa Thompson. And Stephanie Thomas w rites all of these really incredible activists and writers and media personalities with d isabilities. But I do ask myself right now in 2021, like what next, like, I'm very lucky that I've been able to use what I'm good at to try and do some good, i t have a positive impact, but I do find it frustrating that I don't see things change. And I do find it frustrating that there aren't more people with disabilities in newsrooms that I do feel this tension about what my p lace i s. And I am interested i n impact. I am, u h, exploring. And this is where, like, I love your, if your listeners have ideas, c ause I'm, I'm in, I'm in brainstorm mode basically right now, how do I bridge the gap between telling stories and having more of an impact? U m, the best thing that non-disabled people can do is talk to o f non-disabled people about their ableism, right? So that it's not the, the labor of people with disabilities to explain ableism over and over and over again, which I think is completely dehumanizing i n that a lot of being like a good ally i s actually most of your work should be done within your identity group. So where I see the most impact that I can do right now is yes, I love telling stories about people with disabilities, but I also want to think about how I can have more conversations and create more change within institutions that are run by non-disabled people because of the world that we live in and how that can lead to just more structural change. You know, I'm thinking about Imani Barbarin who t alks so much about, I mean, she's a disabled black woman and talks about it constantly that in disability she's forgotten as a black woman, there are so many intersections of disability t hat, that then make it even harder, u m, to be included in these conversations.

Shelly: 10:15

Why are we only the forgotten ones? And I think you and Judy Huemann had recently been back and forth on Twitter about when are we going to finally put a ramp in at the Oscars?

Liz: 10:25

What the Frick?!

Shelly: 10:27

I know, like they have to go around basic. It would make it so much yeah. Easier for everybody to have a ramp rather than those big lumbering steps.

Liz: 10:36

Yes. Jennifer Lawrence fell off. That's something enough. Like that's hard.

Shelly: 10:44

That was like, you couldn't cover that up if you tried.

Liz: 10:47

Yeah. She took it. She took a stumble. Yeah, exactly. But it's, it's, you're so right. And I, I didn't know that there wasn't a ramp, right? It was, I think Victor Pineda and there were conversations happening. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And if you notice too, we had our first disabled director ever nominated, but there was like nothing about it. And I'm not an entertainment reporter, but I'm going to try and write a story about it. Cause I'm like, wait, no one wrote the, like this there's just not even a single article gets cool when it's any other identity, like we should still make a big deal.

Shelly: 11:27

And it's the largest group. It intersects with every other group. It's every race, color, sexual identity, income level, and every part of the world. And it's like 61 million of us!

Liz: 11:41

Literally. Yeah. I think things are changing, right? Like even comparing my reporting on the election in 2016 versus 2020 was completely different, right? Like 2016 Hillary Clinton had for the first right. A platform or a disability, which again, 2016 first had what, but it happened. And by 2020, obviously Donald Trump never even mentioned, you know, had disability anywhere on his website. And it was not even an accessible website. Like we can't even begin with Donald Trump and disability, like, but every other democratic candidate made their website accessible. And so that's, that's big. Like those, we, we heard disability in the acceptance speech of our, of our current precedent and disability had never been mentioned. It is getting better. You know, people are adding it to the list when they named the things. It's still the last one, but it's changing slowly, but we do need to ramp it up. No pun intended.

Shelly: 12:42

Oh, I remember in, even in the debates, the top six candidates all had some sort of fleshed out disability policy when they were running. And then when they were on the debate stage, they had a short conversation, but a conversation clearly about persons with disabilities and how to integrate them better into society moving forward. But the one thing I wanted to talk about was you actually interviewed young first-time voters for the 2020 elections. How did that work? And, and what did you learn from that?

Liz: 13:13

I love that it was my favorite piece. I had so much fun with, uh, with them. Um, so, so yeah, when Donald Trump was elected, I was covering the, the initial protest in New York. And, uh, through that, I was literally at Union Square, you know, the day after the election, pretty traumatized. And, uh, Jack, uh, Mr. Jack, as I know him, a, uh, teacher for students with disabilities in New York sort of came up to me and, and just said, you know, I, I follow your work. And, and I came in this morning to an entire room of kids crying that broke me, uh, and was truly just devastating to think about, yeah, just how children with disability or anyone with disabilities. Just the feeling of like, oh wow, this person laughed at me, mocked me, did the thing that I'm told, uh, you know, it's not supposed to happen. and they, they won and they're the most powerful person in the world that, so that burned, right? It was significant. So Jack and I kept in touch, we ended up emailing again and he said, you know, there, a lot of these kids were kids and now they're turning 18 and they're actually going to be voting for the first time. And they're going to be voting against the person that doesn't stand for justice and freedom for everyone. So I, I pitched it and we ended up interviewing them over for zoom and just having a really wonderful conversation about, uh, yeah. Voting for the first time and what it meant to them. And so, yeah, it's, it was such a fun story.

Shelly: 14:49

Perfect. And I think with that, we're going to take a short commercial break and we'll be back with Liz plank.

AD: 14:57

Ability in Motion is a Pennsylvania based, nonprofit organization dedicated to helping individuals with disabilities live their lives on their own terms. Abilities in Motion, strives to eliminate psychological stereotypes, physical barriers, and outdated attitudes that prevent social and civic inclusion. As well as promote the independent living movement to empower, educate, and advocate for individuals with disabilities. For more information about programs and services, Abilities in Motion provides call 610- 376-0010, or visit our website at www.abilitiesinmotion.org.

Shelly: 15:35

And we're backed with Liz Plank from Canada. What part of Canada are you from actually?

Liz: 15:40

I'm from Montreal. Um, yeah. And, uh, but I've been living in New York for yeah. Almost eight years.

Shelly: 15:48

So now you're stuck in America with us for a little while longer.

Liz: 15:52

I am stuck. Yes. Uh, but I am go back like I'm going back to Montreal for pretty much like part of the summer. Um, and thankfully I have, I got my green card right before the pandemic, which is a huge privilege, so I can actually go back. But if I hadn't had, I would really be stuck here. I wouldn't be able to go see my family. So very grateful.

Shelly: 16:11

So I wanted to talk to you about why you wrote the book For the Love of Men- From Toxic to a More Meaningful Masculinity. What drew you to write this book?

Liz: 16:20

Um, what drew me to write this book is that women aren't really the problem when it comes to, uh, I mean, some women trust me, but, but meaning, you know, the things that we call quote unquote women's issues are actually men's issues. Uh, if we talk about violence against women, it's, it's, men's violence against women, the majority of violence against men and women by the way, is male violence. And so we kind of leave that part out. Uh, but the more research I did in the more interviews I did, the more I realized how many benefits they get from gender equality and how it, you know, that patriarchy, I know patriarchy hurt everybody, but I didn't know that feminism could really have so, so many tangible, positive benefits on men. And like, no one told me this. Um, so I started realizing, wow, we are talking about this so in the wrong way, right, it should feel good and it should make you and other people feel better about yourself and better about the world. Activism is amazing! Feminism is beautiful. Gender equality is liberating for everybody. So the more I, I did research and the more I talked to men, also, the more I realized how little, you know, they knew about this, because I didn't know about it. So how could they know about it? I want it to feel fun. And I want to create that are, that are constructive. And that offer people solutions so that they realize that they are and can be part of the solution from a disability perspective.

Shelly: 18:02

I think one of the coolest stories that you talked about was D'Arcee. He's a gay, black gentlemen that uses a wheelchair and he talked about how it was disappointing that society didn't see him. And we talked about that earlier. Didn't see him as gay, didn't see him as a person with a disability, didn't see him as Afro American. But affection plus disability. What does that equal? You know, when you get a man, that wants to show his affection, plus he has a disability, say a visual disability, like D'Arcee's, what does, what does society think or perceive of him and are they right? Or are they wrong about it?

Liz: 18:34

Well, interviewing men with disabilities was I learned the most about masculinity interviewing men who do not fit neatly into the ideals of it. Right? So, and I think men with disabilities, more than more than any group that I got to interview really spoke to how unrealistic the ideals of masculinity are. Right. That by virtue of being in a wheelchair or by virtue of being in the 80% of people with disabilities, who can't, you know, aren't given the opportunity, u h, to have jobs, to not have that economic independence. And, u h, sustenance means you're not a man. You're not a provider. You're not a man. U m, you're not a protector, right. That may be, you need protection. Right. Which is by the way, kind of, I mean, Victor Pineda talks about this, the best he quotes, like he says," The best people are people who need people." And so, um, yeah, D'Arcee would talk about coming into a room full of men and you know, that he would have to wear like a really nice suit.

Shelly: 19:47

To stand out.

Liz: 19:47

Yeah. Like compensate for his disability and, and that he could, like those interactions with other men, I think are really interesting and that, you know, it's, it's different than it is for women with disabilities. Right? Uh, my, one of my good friends, Molly, a very famous, blind YouTuber. And she talks about how a lot in, for dating for her as a woman with a disability, you know, men, because they are told you're the protector, right? Your, this is your job. Then it can become actually, they like making decisions for her or taking on this. It's not really being a protector at all. And, uh, you know, the opposite, those nuances are really, really interesting. I think men with disabilities particularly just talked about, yeah, ow difficult it was just to find affection and, um, and, and just date in general because of the limits of masculinity.

Shelly: 21:00

Are they, are they doing anything to change that in society? How are they going to crush that stigma?

Liz: 21:09

Yeah, I think it's up to all of us, you know? I was listening to Imani Barbarin and talk about it in the framework of voting rights, right. That we talk about voting rights. And, and obviously it is completely related to the race and racism in America and voter suppression is, or it is the suppression of black people voting, but she also, she pointed out, she was like, all of these are, abelist. Making sure that voting is not accessible, right. That there's not polling stations that are available. That you're not that you don't have to wait in line for a very long time, which you just can't do. If you have a certain disability. It's just wild. It's completely, you know, inhumane. And she said, you know, this is the lost opportunity because no one will talk about how this is limiting and suppressing people with disabilities. And she's like, if we talked about that, it would just create a way stronger argument and the truer argument for, for fighting against these laws. But she's like,"but y'all, don't even talk about us!" And to me, it's, it's similar with masculinity, right? That we can have conversations around masculinity that are, I don't know, small that are not small, but not to compare, but, but I think that are small in a way that like, will you play small? Right? It's like, I'm just playing small. I'm just, I'm taking up a little bit of space or we could have conversations with, I'm asking me where we, we take up a lot of space and we say, how big can this revolution really be? Do we want a knockoff kind of like version of liberation and freedom where some men have a little bit more freedom and leeway, or do we want that for everyone? And we want like full, radical, humanity and dignity and like, and I think the latter, right? So the more we, when we talk about masculinity, that we make that conversation intersectional, because if we free a black, disabled, gay man, we as a collective right. In this movement free, that person? Everyone's free. Right? So I, that's the way that I kind of like to think about it. And this is where also as a, you know, white, uh, CIS, non-disabled woman writing about masculinity. What I want to see is us, you know, that was the point too, of incorporating as many voices as I could, because those are the voices we should really be listening to about how to revolutionize masculinity.

Shelly: 23:30

Yeah. And you checked off three boxes all in one interview with D'Arcee. And I think that was really fabulous.

Liz: 23:37

He's amazing. He's incredible!

Shelly: 23:40

Because it is intersectionality. It does overlap your sexual identity, your income level, your color, your race, your, your gender, and, you know, he's ticked off a lot of good boxes.

Liz: 23:52

Yeah. He's great. Yeah. His last name is Charington. Everyone should follow him. He's a great follow on social media. He actually, um, yeah, he's worked with companies like Uber. He's worked with a lot of different places. He's a PhD. Like he's like on another level of, um, you know, helping making the world more accessible. And I was really appreciative that he took the time to tell us, you know, his story.

Shelly: 24:16

I think last Year, you, you had a short little podcast series called Heart homework.

Liz: 24:22

Yes.

Shelly: 24:23

And I listened to all of them and I got little pieces out of each one of them. And you talked about persons finding their tribe. And as it relates to persons with disabilities, I wanted to know if you could explain what finding your tribe means? You talked about what, um, denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, and acceptance. And each one of them were so profoundly healing. And it made me think about things in a different way. So thank you for that. What do you think finding your tribe means?

Liz: 24:58

Well, first of all, thank you. I'm so glad it was helpful. That was why I did it. I was just like, I feel like we just, I need healing and I need like, you know, these conversations around mental health. So I'm glad that it was that it was useful. And thank you for listening through all of them. Um, so yeah, I think we are hardwired for community. We are hardwired for connection and anyone that tells you different, it's just, it is what it is. You know, that's why, attunement, for example, right. This idea of babies, uh, looking to their caregiver for attunement that if I smile, you smile back. If I look angry, I look sad. You look concerned that you know how I'm feeling and that you're seeing how, and that you're seeing me right? Is the fundamental principle of life. And I think that we forget how crucial that is and how that conversation around friendship and community is related to the conversation around activism and social justice. That truly what discrimination is, is not hearing someone is not seeing someone. And it is a form also of disconnection from them and saying, we won't connect with you. A nd particularly with disability, particularly with disability is isolation, is forced isolation. And, u m, and again, you know, one example again with work, Well because you're like this, you can't be of the workplace. That you're not meant to, you don't belong here. And that's what racism is. That's what sexism is. I think even when we think about employment, I think truly, yes, it's about money, but to me like, yeah, discrimination against people with disabilities in the workplace is a loneliness problem. I t, it is a, to me a mental health problem, u h, because we are cutting off people from community. And I also, I'm curious what you think, but I think, think a lot about how weird it is that there's not more spaces for everybody. Right? That, that I think when we think about community for people with disabilities and by we, I mean, I don't know our society at large. It's like, well, let's create community centers for people with disabilities. No. Like why, w hat, like, why,?

Shelly: 27:38

why isolate it?

Liz: 27:40

Yes, exactly. It's just more isolation. And again, more of this, like you belong here and we're going to be over there.

Shelly: 27:48

And everybody else is over here.

Liz: 27:49

Exactly. And that's that, to me, that breaks me. Like, it's just, and it's everywhere. It's in the way that we talk about these issues. It's in the way that, again, we don't have reporters with disabilities. There's, there's just like, yeah. What you just said, everyone else is here. And you're going to be over there. That is just, I think a violation of, of human dignity and human rights. And I, I want us to, I want non-disabled people to open their eyes to the fact of just their own abelism and how it's holding them back from interacting and engaging and, and enjoying all of the beauty of everybody around them, including people with disabilities.

Shelly: 28:33

Non-disabled society is really missing out on a lot of things,

Liz: 28:36

Exactly. Yes.

Shelly: 28:37

But society Is really missing the mark because by nature, persons with disabilities are problem solvers. We fight to be seen. We fight to be heard. We fight to figure out how and where, and to what extent we fit within society and the best way that we can figure out, because this world was not designed for us. And like you said, it's getting there, but it's got a long way to go. But yeah, we would just, we just fight for it and we shouldn't have to, it's just silliness.

Liz: 29:04

It's silly. It's exactly right. It's just silly. You're right!

Shelly: 29:10

It's not what I'm thinking, but that's what I'll say.

Liz: 29:13

No, but that's, it that's that I love that term. I'm going to totally like,

Shelly: 29:17

You can have that. You guys, you can take that.

Liz: 29:20

No, I'm going to credit you obviously, but it's just silly. It's just like, come on, let's stop being silly. What's going on here.

Shelly: 29:27

We are a work in progress as human beings. We really are.

Liz: 29:29

I think it's so liberating to do the work of uncovering who you really are. So that's, I, that's what I try and do every day and I'm still working on i t. That's what I hope for everyone else.

Shelly: 29:46

One last question. Where can our listeners find you out there on social media and follow you and learn more about you?

Liz: 29:52

Thank you. I am feministabulous on Instagram. If that's too complicated, I get it. It's Liz Plank. If you put it in Liz Plank, it'll populate. Twitter as well. Um, and I'm on Tik TOK. Liz Plank, uh, had a lot, I think Tik TOK is such a fun platform with so many content creators with disabilities and they just, uh, thanks to the Deaf Collective. Uh, that's an amazing organization started actually by Alexandra Ocasio, Cortez, his brother, they took talking to how captions for deaf and hard of hearing.

Shelly: 30:25

Fabulous. Yes.

Liz: 30:27

Since yesterday. So we're, we're, you know, evolving slowly.

Shelly: 30:32

Are you on LinkedIn at all or Facebook?

Liz: 30:34

I think I'm on LinkedIn. I Elizabeth Plank, maybe. No, I think I'm listed on LinkedIn and obviously you can buy my book. I would love that. Um, cause then it allows me to write more books.

Shelly: 30:43

French.

Liz: 30:44

Yes. It just came out in French. You can get it in French. You can get it in English and get on an Audible. Please buy it from your local bookstore because they all really need your dollars. And um, yeah, that's where I am right now. That's my stuff! I'm working on a disability and employment initiative. And so, um, hopefully I'll, I'll have more news about it soon, but I'm still in the, in the trying to figure out the planning of it. So stay tuned.

Shelly: 31:12

And I think with that, we're going to wrap up our episode today with Liz plank. Liz, thank you for being here today. We really appreciate it!

Liz: 31:18

Thank you so much. It's so nice talking with you, Shelly!

Shelly: 31:23

And t o our listeners hit that like and subscribe button so you never miss an episode of DisAbility Talks.

Music: 31:46

[inaudible]

Outro: 31:51

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks. Want to keep the conversation going? Then visit our website@abilitiesinmotion.org or connect with us on social media. And remember don't dis my ability.