Exploring Accessibility Excellence with PA Museums and Historical Sites

Shelly sits down with Project Manager, Jenny Angell to discuss the two year long project that the Pa Museums and Historical Sites have undertaken to identify what changes they can make to create accessible excellence throughout the state. If your organization could use a fresh look, contact Jenny to obtain a packet.

 Pa Museums website: https://pamuseums.org/accessibility-excellence/

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Transcript

Intro: 0:05

Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by Abilities in Motion. I'm your host, Shelly Houser. Join us for real conversations and no nonsense talk from everyday people with disabilities, living their most independent everyday lives. Tune in for the latest news surrounding disability, accessibility and independence. Where conversations aren't dissed, and stories that need to be told aren't missed. So let's talk.

Shelly: 0:34

In 2019, Pennsylvania museums was awarded a two year grant study to look at the accessibility standards throughout the state of Pennsylvania. Dubbed the Accessibility Excellence Project, Project Manager, Jenny Angell, and her team partnered with local centers for independent living together information from the perspective of persons with disabilities and where their historical sites should improve accessibility features. I was part of this project, so I decided to sit down with Jenny as our project is wrapping up. So the day, Jenny, how are you today?

Jenny: 1:05

I'm good. How are you, Shelly? It's a pleasure to be here.

Shelly: 1:08

Yeah. Good to see you get again. We had this journey together for the last year, I guess, off and on?

Jenny: 1:16

Yeah. Yeah. Starting with the pilot for the paws project in the, in the summer helped us with our site visits for which we're super, super grateful. It was, it was amazing to, to meet you and, and the other folks from AIM, team as part of that.

Shelly: 1:30

Yeah, exactly. So for our listeners worldwide, tell us what this accessibility project is all about.

Jenny: 1:39

Sure. Thing, this is, as you mentioned earlier, um, a grant from the Institute of Museum and Library Services, it's a national leadership and museums grant. And our goal is to design a pilot, a self-assessment program to help museums establish their accessibility baseline and also to help meet national standards for museum accessibility, we're recognizing that this is something that the museum field is really looking at both more specifically and also a s, as part of larger DEAI initiatives. A nd, and w e're, we're kind of recognizing this is a, this is a gap that that should be filled. And so t he, the grant itself i s a partnership between Pa museums, which is the statewide museum p rofessional association here in Pennsylvania and the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commissions Bureau of Historic Sites and Museums. So this is the state government agency that oversees, u m, all of the state owned and operated historic sites here in Pennsylvania. So those are our museum, people who are in the mix, but we also have an Accessibility Advisory Council a s part of our project team, which includes folks from our local center for independent living here in Harrisburg, which is the CIL of Central PA as, as other national and local accessibility experts.

Shelly: 3:03

Good. So the ADA has been out 30, 31 years as of this year. Why now did they decide to do this study?

Jenny: 3:12

But the decision was made kind of before I was hired, but what, what I've learned along the process was that this came out of the historical museum, the state commissions, diversity equity inclusion, and accessibility plan that started in 2018, but it's now part of their 2020 strategic plan and vision. But the PHMC decided to partner with PA Museums to, to go for this grant because we really wanted to, to focus on a tool that would be not only usable for, for the museums in the state system to help them meet those goals and meet this plan, but also to develop a toolkit that would be usable for all different kinds of museums, all over the state and all over the country. This is a, this is a national grant. And part of the Pennsylvania museums membership is that an includes all different types of museums, everything from children's museums, science centers, arboreta botanical gardens, um, as well as kind of small to medium historic sites, which are most of the, the Euro of historic sites and museums membership. And so these, these smaller sites were really our testing ground for the toolkit. Um, so that gave them an opportunity to get a, get a headstart on improving their accessibility through using this toolkit, enter testing it. And also by having the staff members be, uh, members of the projects working group that kind of allowed staff to build their, build their knowledge and understanding about this.

Shelly: 4:50

That's great that they're looking at arboretums and children, things and historical sites and the whole, they're encompassing the whole gamut of visitors, centers and spaces.

Jenny: 5:03

We're trying, that's the goal.

Shelly: 5:06

That's a lot. Do you know, since this is a nationwide grant, have you heard that other states are actually partaking in this kind of, um, study as well in other states?

Jenny: 5:15

So we're definitely looking at the first phase of this project is really focusing a lot on research and exploring kind of benchmarking around this field. There, it was another museum that received an IMLS leadership grant like we did in the same year. I think, gosh, I'm totally blanking on the name, but, um, they're doing a study about, I think, exhibits for people with on the autism spectrum. But as far as for something that's really broad ranging and designed to, to help accessibility specifically, there are a lot of kind of broad DEAI tool kits out there, which we're revisiting right now and looking to see how we can kind of not, not reinvent the wheel, where we go as far as for pushing for broader inclusion. But also, um, to, to kind of tie in with the, with the work that's already been done, but also push it forward and realize where there are gaps and where we can help fill that in.

Shelly: 6:11

So this project is so all encompassing and seems like overwhelming huge.

Jenny: 6:15

( laughter) Tell me about it!

Shelly: 6:19

How did you even begin to organize this project and how many other locations were involved in this study?

Jenny: 6:27

So the project itself had three phases. I kind of talked a little bit earlier about the exploratory phase, which was the first one where we were doing a lot of research, kind of looking at, looking at what was going on as well as actually writing what was going to become the toolkit that lasted about a year, obviously COVID, it was supposed to last about like, I think eight or nine months, uh, COVID impact of that. It did last about a year, and honestly it needed that time for staff to do the research, build their own knowledge basises, understand exactly what we were undertaking, um, and, and have some, some good, useful debates. Like what, what is accessibility? There's, there's a bunch of different organizations in the field professional organizations nationally that have developed their own definitions of accessibility and they're all subtly different. So we had to kind of think about, okay, where, where do we want to stand here? The second phase was the pilot phase. So that was Shelly, what you were, what you were part of this involved regional centers for independent living partnering with the 20 bureau of historic museums sites to do site visits, test out the toolkit, just kind of see, see how this was working in, in the field, so to speak. And then the third phase, which we're getting into now is more focused on, on revision and results. So we started off as a, as a two-year grant. Um, we did, we're lucky enough to receive an extension from IMLS. So right now we are looking to wrap up in the summer, probably June of 2022. Um, we were scheduled to end in December and that isn't going to happen now. Um, but part, part of what was so exciting about the pilot is that we really got a chance to understand how this would work. You're you're talking about how, how big this project is and how broad museums are as a field. Having the bureau sites to use as kind of a testing lab was a really great opportunity because we had a chance to work with sites like the Daniel Boone homestead, which was one of those sites that you visited, which is as you're going to test 300 acres, it's massive to sites like the Erie Maritime Museum, which is a kind of more traditional museum, but also includes a tall ship. The Bird Niagara reproduction of that is, is part of that site. So how do you, how do you make a tall ship accessible? We had to ask ourselves that question and we're also just, just every site was, was different. Um, a lot of historic sites. So we had to kind of grapple with those issues about historic buildings and accessibility, and really just, just kind of look at, look at every site and look at every staff's needs to. Not only were the sites really different, but the staff and what situations they were in is, was very different from, from site to site.

Shelly: 9:17

Yeah. You talked about this toolkit of sorts. Is that what you use to capture the information at every site and what is this toolkit look like?

Jenny: 9:28

So the toolkit itself is, um, right now it's got two major parts. We're looking to expand upon that a little bit in the next phase. Um, but the first part is a self assessment. So this is something that museum staff can look at, fill out and kind of gauge their baseline. We use a four tier system to sort of, um, so what for the pilot phase, we did use this self-assessment to, um, kind of go through the site visit and ask folks from the centers for independent living to complete the self-assessment as staff to complete the self assessment. Um, and then kind of had, uh, had a debrief discussion about where, where folks saw the opportunities for improvement, where there were barriers, um, and, and had a chance to do a little creative problem solving, which was really great. Um, the other piece of the toolkit is, um, a collection of resource guides. So these are designed for when after staff have completed that self-assessment kind of figured out, okay, where are we going to, where are we going to go from here? Um, and those resource guides are really designed to provide resources for taking those next steps. So to help kind of mitigate that issue of, oh God, there's so much to do. Or we just don't know where to start. Here are some resources, here are some things that, that we've added that we've either found useful or have seen other museums find useful, um, to really go and, and actually do the work, which is the hardest part. Um, you can, you can sit and you can think about it all day, but actually getting that done. That's where the real work is.

Shelly: 11:07

Yeah. And that's tricky part, but I think we're going to take a commercial break and we'll be back after this

AD: 11:13

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Shelly: 12:03

So I wanted to get into more of the staff, like our IT guy, Matt and myself, that we partnered you partnered with around the state from other local CIL's or center for independent living. How were, how were we essential or vital to your project?

Jenny: 12:22

Yes, absolutely. We, we wouldn't have the toolkits that we have right now without involvement from centers for independent living. So this was really mostly happening in the pilot phase. Although we did work really closely with, um, Jeanetta Green, who's the Executive Director at PACIL of central PA. She's been involved with the project from the start and really helped, helped give us, give us a little perspective while we were developing the toolkit, but actually bringing folks in and having that dialogue with staff at the different sites as part of the pilot was to me the most valuable experience. So this, this involves kind of recruiting local center for independent living staff or, and or consumers. Sometimes we had boats. Sometimes it was just one or the other to actually come to the sites. As I said before, kind of work on the, self-assessment have a conversation with the staff, really building that partnership. I kind of framed this with the staff and starting the conversation is this is, this is going to be your first conversation, hopefully of many. This isn't just the one and done were done. Check we've completed the toolkit. This, this is something where this is a valuable resource. And also, um, I think some of the feedback that we got from folks in the CIL's is this is helping to complete part of the center for independent living end date of involvement in the community. So most museums really want to be seen as a community anchor. And so we're really helping kind of provide, provided, provide another site for folks to, to get involved with, um, via, via the museums that they were visiting

Shelly: 13:57

With you going around and visiting the sites with these partners from CIl's. Do you have any great takeaway stories of some simple fix that the museum didn't realize would just a simple change would make things so much more accessible for their guests?

Jenny: 14:16

Oh yeah. It was really interesting because we had a lot of things that were unique to the sites. Obviously each site being a little bit different, but one thing that came up again and again and again, and I know Sh elly, this came up in your visit as well was, was something simple, like signage and pathways an d m aking sure th at, that your pathways are not only we ll-maintained, but that you look out for these, these tiny things, even a crack in the sidewalk, or I think you were talking about the slope on that really rainy day an d t h at w e had a Boone, talking about how something like that might not seem li ke, like a barrier, but actually can a pretty major issue. And also having that experience, I think having staff like you and Matt there, where you've not only got the lived experience, but you've also got the professional experience. So this is, this is something that you're used to doing that, you know, how to frame in a way that might not, might not kind of cause that defensive reaction, but you ar e s aying, you know, here, this is, this is something that we in volve, we're willing to help you creatively pr oblem-solve a nd talk about some things th at, that have worked well for us in the past. And I think that really helped the staff, but okay. Yeah, this is something we need to improve, but it's doable. We can handle it. And even something that was a little bit bigger, I think having, having the opportunity to have that conversation and just say, Hey, you know, we're, we're not here to file a lawsuit on you. We're here to, to try and work collaboratively to make it better. Ab solutely. That was, I think a major kind of aha moment for the staff of, oh, okay. We can, we can be in this together. It's not an us versus them situation.

Shelly: 15:50

Yeah. So I know one of the other sites that I didn't visit had a woman that was a wheelchair user and there was a bookshelf or something in front of the accessible lift to get her into the train car. Is that right? So tell us about, tell us about that story.

Jenny: 16:09

Yeah. So that was, that was our very first site visit and there was so, so we were going into this year, we were ready to learn. Um, but yeah, we had two, two folks from, um, the, the local still in Lancaster and they were coming up at the railroad museum was, was really excited for this. Their, their staff is super, super enthusiastic and they're like, yeah, you know, we, we've got this mobile lift that we use because their, their collection is mostly roling stock. So train cars, engines, that sort of thing. Um, so something that you, you don't think of, especially if you're looking to get to it from the ground as being accessible to someone who uses a wheelchair, but they were like, and we, we went in, we were having some staff wheel this in and they realized that one of their, um, glass exhibit cases was actually in the path that the lift needed to go into to get access to the train cars that we were trying to get through. And so our site administrator and a couple of the staff members just said, okay, you know, we can this thing, isn't on, isn't bolted to the floor. We can just lift it up, move it down a couple inches. And that's this new permanent home. And now that train car is much more accessible, should a visitor come and want to use the lift to, to get into it. And once they did move that case, she was able to get in and really enjoyed it. It was able to have a full and equivalent experience, which is, which is the goal here.

Shelly: 17:37

Yeah. And that was the partnership that we as persons with disabilities through the CIL, hoping to, to obtain with, with each site location. So you are an able-bodied person and we don't judge, we don't judge you for that. But I put you in, in a wheelchair at Daniel Boone on a rainy day. What did you learn as an able-bodied person, um, going through getting into that building, and then you decided to challenge yourself to get on and off the toilet without a grab bar, tell our listeners that little experience. And what, from your perspective you learned about maybe some of our daily challenges.

Jenny: 18:23

Yeah. I mean, it was, it was a major, a major wake up call for sure. Um, this was, this was going into a building, but, um, I think it was the, the Wayside Lodge at Boone that we were, that we were going into, which is kind of used as a, they said they use it as like a Scout camping space. So there's, there's beds, there's a bathroom. Um, it's not a historic building, but it's, it's got some, some historic significance. So the staff were really like, you know, we, we want to change this. We want to be able to make it accessible for, should we have a Scout group that's got somebody who's a wheelchair user. So Shelly's like, you know, Hey, I've got a, got a folding chair in the back of my car, up in this thing and let's go. Um, and, and it was really just thinking about every single thing from the, the slope of the pathway going. And there was a pretty sizeable lip on the doorway that I nearly did an endo on trying to get in cause I thought I could just power through and Nope. Um, and so, and then getting in the door, which was, which was barely there and then trying to use the bathroom because they were, they were trying to figure out, you know, will this work as an accessible bathroom with some modifications? And there were, there were no grab bars. There was barely enough turning radius if I remember correctly. And I pretty much had to, in order to transfer him, the chair had to like touch the toilet seat, shimmy out over. And it was, it was a situation where I was like, oh y eah, no, this is not a good situation as it stands right now. An d, and I think that was a really good ey e-opener f or the staff to o, to realize just all these little things that can snowball and add up in t he experience of folks.

Shelly: 20:01

Yeah. You know, I, I put you in that situation, not because I don't like you, I done like you' very much! But rather if I just tell you, or, or if Matt had been there, Matt just tells you, this is what he goes through to don and doff off the toilet and get through a building. It wouldn't have made as much of an impact. And I, I wanted, I wanted an able-bodied person to be in that moment and feel the challenge and the frustration and the thought process that it goes through something as simple as going to the bathroom, you know, everybody is different. And I think it was a huge eye-opener and I'm very grateful that you didn't give up and that you stopped. And really like, Hey, if I, if I was a wheelchair user, you know, how would I problem solve this when we say we're problem solvers? Because it wasn't world wasn't built for us. That's exactly what we mean. That was just one little challenge that we threw at you and you did a brilliant, you did it brilliantly, you toughed it out. I was very proud of you, but,

Jenny: 21:14

Um, I'm a former educator, so I love stuff like that. Um, but yeah, it was, and it was also, I think in all honesty, that's been something that we've really been working through is a challenge with this program. Is that in this project, is that yes, it's, it's well-intentioned but the core of the people, yes, we do have a number of people with disabilities who are on our, on our advisory council, but the core of our working group is non-disabled museum people, most of whom are white, most of whom are straight. Most of whom are cis-gender, there's a lot of that empathy building that needs to happen. And also realizing that there's, there's a line where our lived experience only takes us so far, and we need to really hand things over and say, you know, we need help on this, which as museum staff and being used to kind of being seen as the experts on things can be really challenging sometimes.

Shelly: 22:10

But I think I appreciate actually from our perspective here a t, at aim that the museums and statewide are at least having this conversation and going beyond the conversation of, if we just had some Scouts build some portable ramps or removed the stone over and made it bigger and, u m, add some lighting. And so we talked about sensory issues. We talked about, u h, how persons with blindness would or deafness would, u m, experience different sites in different ways. So I think we really encompassed at least in the s ites that Matt and I were at with you, a wide variety of disabilities and not just, y ou k now, the top main ones that everybody normally thinks about.

Jenny: 22:57

Yeah, definitely. That, and that was something where, where we were really trying to, I know I had had a big conversation with some of our partners and folks who were helping set up the visits and saying, you know, we, we really need a diverse array of folks who want to sell yeah. Recognizing that typical. So consumers that, that there are things that tend to kind of tip towards for mobility disabilities. But also, I mean, having, I think it was when you were at the, at one of the site visits where you're talking about, you know, there's another staff member in your office who's blind, um, or there's, there's other, so particularly with the sales staff, it was really great to say, you know, here I I'm here representing accessibility, but there's, I've got a friend or I've got a work colleague or there's somebody else at the seller, there's somebody else at the statewide level that can help with, with this particular thing, or here's a resource that you might not have heard of before. Like that was, that was really useful for us because I think that's, that's something that we're trying to go for with this scope. And that we're recognizing is, is a major challenge where we, we want to be able to get as many perspectives as possible, but we're also in this time limitation. So how do we, how do we do that? Um, and do that successfully rather than saying, you know, we're, we're just going to say what we think this particular community needs and not actually ask them.

Shelly: 24:19

I see the medical physicians do it. You know, I think a lot of other communities just think that they know better and they are professionals in their field. And we do acknowledge that. But what I teach on disability and awareness, I teach them, you know, you are going to bring your professional perspective and experience, but let us bring experience our lived experience to the table as well, and combine that together. And that there is no animosity of, I'm going to tell you what to do, or I'm going to Sue you kind of attitude of more of like let's put our minds together and create something amazing together. And that's what I loved about being part of this project. So very much

Jenny: 25:03

A hundred percent that's, that's, that's our goal too. And I think that's something where we were really able to recognize, you know, we, we both want the same thing here, right? So let's, let's create a really solid partnership because we're, we're looking at the same goal. We both want, want these museums and these sites to be more accessible, maybe for different reasons, but the goal is the same. And so how can we work together to, to achieve that? And yeah, I've, I was a hundred percent super grateful for that as well, because that's, that's the way to do it.

Shelly: 25:35

I think we had a lot of fun along the way that we were at together. Um, Matt challenged you up a ramp in your manual chair and he used his electric chair and he cheated,

Jenny: 25:47

Oh my God, I'm forever grateful for Matt for chewing up the, up the hill, like Conrad Weiser homestead. Oh my God, my a rms still never recovered. My biceps are about an inch bigger. It was going up, going up a hill to a, u m, a statue at one of the historic sites. And again, I was in that, in that f olding manual chair and oh man, I tried, but

Shelly: 26:13

No pain, no gain. Yeah.

Jenny: 26:17

Massive, thanks to Matt for that. But it was also such a great example of like, Hey, here's, here's how we help each other. And it might look a little unconventional, but God, it works.

Shelly: 26:29

That is the story of our everyday life I'm telling you. So now that you've wrapped up the physical site visits, you and your team, uh, presented at the MaaM conference last month, what,, what is the MaaM conference and what feedback did you receive from the persons that tapped into a learn more about that?

Jenny: 26:53

Yeah, so, um, ma'am, it's I'm MaaM, which is stands for the Mid-Atlantic Museums Association. So this is our regional museum professional organization here in Mid-Atlantic states. That's I believe Pennsylvania, New Jersey, um, Maryland and DC I think is, is represented in that region, represented in that conference. And the, the theme of the conference this year was centering people at your museum. And so we were like, alright, this is, this is perfect for us. Um, and we, we really, it was really great to hear, um, your from, from different museum staff, obviously the, the audience of this particular conference is aimed at museum staff in, in this particular region. So hearing from, from different museums who weren't involved in the pilot, um, museums, that that might not be kind of, of the, of the type that we got to test out at, um, or just particularly people who were earlier in, in their, in their career. So a lot of emerging professionals or college or grad students are part of this conference. So it was really great to hear what's been, been talked about in these, these museum studies programs, how that can, can help us moving forward. And also what, what, what we were getting that echo on of, yes, this is definitely an improvement that needs to be made. Um, but also just hearing what's, what's kinda new in these programs and how these younger staff or future, hopefully staff see us as their role and, and see us as how they would possibly be, be using this toolkit, even if they may not have a particular museum to test it out right now.

Shelly: 28:34

So, but it's good that they're thinking about it and that the younger, newer staff coming in interns and college students, if they can make a big, bigger impact as they move through their career with fresh ideas. So that might be fine for them.

Jenny: 28:50

Exactly. Yeah. It was one of the, one of the other sessions that was going on was a bunch of, of students that one of these museum programs presenting their theses. And I was like, oh man, this is number one, flashes me back to doing the same thing, you know, but also is like, you know what? This is, this is where the future is. An an honestly was kind of affirming for me as I'm like, this is, this is on track. Like not all of them were DEAI focused, but this, this push towards greater, greater social justice, greater environmental sustainability is something that's top of mind for all of these students right now are most of these students right now. So hearing that is like, all right, we're with the trends, right. For the kids. But also that we're, that we're doing the work that on one hand still needs to be done. But on the other hand, there are people are still really excited and energized to be doing this work, which is great.

Shelly: 29:47

Yeah. No, thank you for doing this work because it is very, very important, you know, not only here in the state of Pennsylvania, but nationwide and, you know, for all the beautiful museums that are in Europe that may need some, need to think about some accessibility issues. There's those museums and historical places are much older than in Pennsylvania by a few hundred years. So yeah, now that you move into phase three and your project is wrapping up, what's next for you and your team?

Jenny: 30:18

So we are deep into editing, uh, right now that's, that's really where we're looking at is learning from the lessons. How can we make this this better and more user-friendly um, when we were piloting it, it was a 30 page word document, which we got some pretty quick feedback over. This is intense. This is way too much. How can we, how be in a format that your, your average kind of stressed out of their mind, museum staff, her or your, your staff of one, are your staff made up entirely of volunteers? How can we put this in a way that's not dumbing it down, but in a way that makes it seem a little less intimidating, but checking all these boxes in a 30 page document, um, other piece we're really working on is something kind of in the middle to help museums create, uh, an accessibility transition plan. So a way to take their, their score or take some of the things that they've identified in completing the self-assessment and really put on paper, okay. How are you going to concretely take action on this? When are you going to concretely take action on it? Who understaffed or have your volunteers is going to be responsible for this? And, and this is in one way, kind of a, uh, uh, a legal thing for the ADA. So in case there are some challenges you can say, Hey, here's, here's our plan. Here's what we're doing. Here's what we've already done. Here's what we're looking to do in the future. Um, but also just to, as we've talked about before this idea of taking the action is the hardest part. So how to help with that actual taking action piece, um, and not just leave it up the ruminating stage. And then also we're, we're really looking at how can we, we tie this into broader DEAI work. I know there's, there's always a lot of, a lot of talk within disability communities of, Hey, don't forget that a N DEAI a every time I see a job posting where it's like diversity equity and inclusion coordinator, a little piece of me dies because I'm like, I hope you're not like I, I get the commute to condense and rename, but don't forget well, disabilities in this work, because this is, this is not something that can be dropped off at a, is there for a reason, but also we really want to make sure, you know, think about where we can, can push things forward and where we're not marginalizing other, other communities that have been marginalized or that are facing barriers to access to museums. And also a lot of this does have a lot of cross pollination for, for people with disabilities as well. So for something like the cost of a ticket as a barrier to entry, that that can, can do a lot of things that can lower barriers for folks, not only with, with people with disabilities, but also folks who might be on other sorts of social supports and need that to actually get, to get through the door of a museum where we're doing a lot of thinking of, okay, what does it take to get through the door? And then what does it take to create an equitable and inclusive museum experience?

Shelly: 33:33

One thing I can say is having a lower cost for their aid that might be with them or their partners, spouse, and spinners, to help them through, to transfer in the bathrooms there, to help them be able to reach the counter, to get lunch or carry their, their item that they purchased. All of those things are so very important as you guys move through this phase three of this project. So if any of our listeners out there nationwide, worldwide, want to tap into this wonderful project and find out more, where can our listeners find out more about this accessibility excellence project?

Jenny: 34:14

Yeah, so we have, as I mentioned, that the toolkit is scheduled to be released in the summer of 2022, most likely, but we do have on the PA museum's website, a page available where you can sign up to receive the toolkit as soon as it is released. So that website you are out is PA museums.org/accessibility, and then a hyphen excellence. And I really hope to see, see more people signing up for this as well, especially folks who, who might be outside of the museum profession, but know a friend or want to share this toolkit with, with their local museum. That would be amazing. We would love to see that.

Shelly: 34:59

Yes. Thank you so very much, we will put that website address in the show description. So look for it there on our website. And thank you Jenny so much for your time and your efforts with all of this on the statewide huge project. We here at our CIL really appreciate all the efforts and conversation that we've had for the last year regarding this.

Jenny: 35:21

You're welcome. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Shelly. This is really great too, to have another format to chat about the project and also to, to continue our conversation as well.

Shelly: 35:32

Exactly. Very good. And to our listeners worldwide, thank you for joining us and forget to hit that like and subscribe button, but you never miss the opportunity to listen to DisAbility Talks.

Music: 36:01

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Outro: 36:05

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